DID YOU KNOW? MEDIA’S IMPACT ON THE NARRATIVE OF WOMEN WITH MATT PRICE, VP OF MEDIA & TECHNOLOGY – NIELSEN

17

Jan

Introduction:

Welcome to The Sisterhood report. I am Kimberly Faith your host. We are in a changing world my sweet sisters and it's such an exciting time. But I hear from a lot of you, you like to think about what all these changes mean for you for your life and the life of women in general, but who has time?

Well, the good news is I've done the heavy lifting for you and each episode of a Sisterhood report. I sit down for a one-on-one conversation with a guest who has an influencer in their own way and together we connect the dots. So let me ask you what if you could see the much larger story unfolding? What if you could learn new ways of thinking that could absolutely revolutionize the way you and other women see themselves each other in the world?

Well, the fact is that we can change the world one woman, one sister at a time. It starts with you and me right here right now. 

Today I want to introduce you to Dr. Matt Pryce. He has a Ph.D. in media psychology and let me tell you, I first met Matt in one of my classes, the sessions I taught Nielsen from years ago, and he and I have developed a robust relationship over the years.

 I could tell you all about the fact that he's a 20-year veteran in the digital media space. He has expertise that has a broad range around consumer neuroscience, and so he and I geek out often together when it comes to these issues. He was terrific when I did the research for my book, Your Lion Inside.

 He's an avid sports fan, gamer, foodie, movie buff.  You are in for a treat here because Matt has a different perspective for us to see the world. So I'd like to welcome our guest. Dr. Matt Pryce.

Kim: All right, I am very pleased today to have Matt here with me. I've shared the Bio with you from the start. Matt. I want to say welcome.

Matt: Thank you, Kim, appreciate it and thank you for the invite.

Kim: Well, I actually I was so delighted that you said yes because you and I actually met a few years ago and we hit it off because we see the world and some interesting intellectual kind of ways. And so why don't we just start by how did we meet and have this conversation unfold?

Matt: Yeah, of course. So, at the time I was working at Nielsen, vice president of media and technology for the Neuroscience research group and Kim was there providing training, Managerial training and talking about communication and systems thinking and how you can communicate both up and down the chain of command and found some things really interesting there.

But we also found some parallel ways of thinking just about media and technology and just how people interact in general and I think that informed at the time I was a Ph.D. student, so it informed some of my thinking and my work.

Kim: Oh, I forgot about that!

Matt: Yeah,

Kim: That’s right; I knew you before you were officially a Ph.D.

Matt:  Before I got the letters after my name absolutely.

Kim: Okay and actually one of the things that impressed me is you have such a quick way to see the world and you saw the world differently than other people which to me and you know with the background systems thinking was very appealing to me because I talk a lot about people's beliefs.

So you are most kind when I started working on the book a few years back and said, Matt, I'm seeing some concerning trends and I'm trying to either validate or invalidate, prove myself wrong per se, that this is the whole narrative that's happening in the media and storylines that women actually are hearing is significantly influencing the way we see the world and you said “Kim you're not crazy”.

So why don't we go back to that conversation when you're not had over dinner because that was an important step and the actual development of my book.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely and you're not crazy and any of the listeners out there that think that way same for you. What you're hearing what you're reading and what you're seeing on TV is definitely influencing The Narrative and as a media psychologist, which media psychology is all about the study of media and how people consume and interact with media and Technology.

It's central to it. It really is it's kind of one of the tenants of media psychology is to be very critical about. What you see what, you hear what you read and consider all of it brings it through a filter before you bring it in just haphazardly.

 Kim: Okay, so let’s, we’ll dive more into that because Matt I actually made a conscious choice to stop watching the News seven years ago. So when I talk consistent thinking, I talk about structures driving behavior and I really began to notice that my attitude and my world is significantly impacted by what I kept hearing in the media. That wasn't a crazy choice, was it?

Matt: No, not at all. In fact, you're well ahead of the curve which is good because I think we can all agree, especially since November of 2016 as your reference in the book media has been amped up and changed in substantial ways. So, you really can't put blinders on anymore. You have to be careful about how you consume media. 

Kim: Okay, so because the thing that you have been surprising to me is that I actually can tell what is happening in the news about the women's movement based on the questions. I receive in classes. So, you know years back it might have been there the unconscious bias. Then there was the issue of there are not enough mentors then there, you know, there was a lean and reports I so I literally can see in my classes the messaging from the world bubble up.

 So how does someone who hasn't spent much time thinking about this begin to be more aware of it?

Matt: Yes, so it's really a forest from the trees type of problem and what I mean by that is I think a lot of us have been indoctrinated from the time that was little kids, think back to your youngest memories of and I'm by no means putting parents on the spot here saying they're doing anything wrong but a lot of us grew up with Sarah in front of a television. Or some type of media device, of course fast forward to today the Millennials that are coming of age and having kids their kids have iPods and iPhones from a very young age. So we're consuming media from our most impressionable age and because of that, we start becoming I don't want to say immune but you don't really pay as close attention.

You have a non-conscious response to things like news media and stories that are out there and things that your parents say. Well, where are they getting that from? Where are their primary news sources, are they reading the newspaper? Are they talking to other people or they watching TV and media and of course media has a very specific focus.

There's a kind of an old joke in the broadcast world that talks about you know, what is TV programming? It's the crap we put on in between commercials that we have to sell. So in the news is the same way, right they have whether they admit it or not. No matter who says they're fair and balanced or they're you know, not biased everybody has a lien. Everybody has a message. They're trying to get out and it has to be hyper focused because they only have a limited amount of time.

 So, a lot of people get their media directly nowadays from social media as first source, but so is you know television people that they talk to and where you have to think about where they getting that from and what lens is it focused through why are they saying it, the way that they're saying it . And as you well know as somebody who's written a book about this, words are very powerful and the order in which you put words in matters very much and you can say the same thing three different ways and get three completely different meanings or interpretations out of it. And I think that's critical because news media is very good at knowing exactly what the right order is for the reaction they want.

Kim: Okay, so this is a really big topic and I know we could go so many different directionsSo why not hone us in to what's happening with the women's narrativeSo here we are, my premise is that when a girl is born she is handed a storybook that is already half written by somebody else and that's that social narrative that all the expectations. But what's interesting to me, I want to dive into this is two steps for you. The first one is that the world is actually reinforcing that narrative consistently throughout time. So how is that showing up for women? So if you want to I don't know whether you take pay Equity or whether you take that whatever subject you want to take with women because I've always been impressed with your being such an advocate for women. How do they begin to see that? So let's dive more into what's happening with the messaging for women.

Matt: Sure. I think a pay Equity is a very easy one to wrap your head around and it's blatantly out there. It's not really a hidden thing. We've all talked about it the idea that women get paid. You know anywhere from 20 to 40 cents on the dollar and some cases and I think what you have to think about is it's…

Kim: The numbers aren't quite that bad. But I know what you mean.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Kim: Yeah 20 or 40% less.

Matt: Yes, correct. And I think part of that narrative is when you reinforce it from a young age, right? So in the book, you give the example of if a woman goes into an interview and she's already read the story about how women get paid less.

 So that's one reinforcing thing and she believes it because she's heard it from all of her friends that have similar stories. For they interviewed and they got a job, but they don't feel like they were getting paid as much so she's already putting herself with this is so let's get to the heuristics and I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. But heuristics is the idea of bias. It was made popular by Daniel Kahneman and you might be familiar with the book,” Thinking Fast and Slow”, and he talks about system 1 and system 2 thinking right and these biases play into our everyday lives. So basically a heuristic or bias in some way that we process information.

 So if you think about system 1 and system 2 refers to the way that we process information coming into our brain and there are two ways we can do it. The brain is very lazy believe it or not. It uses an 80% of the energy in the human body, which means if you're using that much battery power you're going to try to find shortcuts because the brain has so much going on.

 It has to regulate your body system and temperature and organs. So they don't fail and keep you breathing and moving forward and reacting to stimulus in the environment. They're going to be some things that have to be prioritized and some things that you're just going to make heuristic bias reactions to that your brains going to go, Okay. I've seen this sort of thing before. I'm just going to jump to conclusion ABC because it's the most likely conclusion that I should jump to however that lazy way of thinking is where the biases come in. It's the ingrained stuff in as like you talked about the narrative already being pre-written, when you've heard them since a child and your mother heard it and your grandmother heard it. It's going to affect you even as an implicit non-conscious level. You don't realize is that you’re not actively okay,

Kim: Okay.

 Matt: but it's going to happen. So I’ll give an example. So when you're talking about like the pay bias, so there's a bandwagon effect, which is everybody around you is saying the same thing. So it must be true. Availability bias refers to the information directly in front of you, you don't have a lot of time to go looking for other sources of information and doing historical research. You leave that to the PHDs and the research nerds. We spend all day long doing that. But when you're going for a job interview, let's say, you know, you might research that company and all you're going to have is what’s front of you. So that means the formed message that they put on their website that is carefully crafted by people with many years of experience in marketing communication. The news media is reporting on them and their PR agencies and what you read on LinkedIn which everybody puts their best foot forward on LinkedIn and no one's going to tell you horror stories or tell you the bad that they have so all of these things play in all these biases play into your own narrative that you then take with you into that interview. And if we continue to perpetuate stories with women about lower pay being okay, or they need to work harder than a man or whatever the case is. That's where it’s going to continue. Whereas you have to flip that thinking around and avoid those biases as much as possible.

Kim: Well, that's why we're having this conversation because that's where I stumbled upon it and I was actually almost shocked to see it. I think I shared that with you that I was even in a state of disbelief because it was almost like we as women were swimming in a fish bowl with this narrative and we were so deep into it that we couldn't even see it. So for people for listeners who haven't read the book, I'm going to try to take this lightly.

So when I first thought glaringly was around the time of the release of the leading book and numbers of women were very excited about, here you know step out you have more power to do you what you can on your Arena which I was a fan of and then there I watched as they were pushed back and I arrived at program one day with a woman who picked me up for this big women conference.

There were about two or three hundred women. She sent the entire ride to the location telling me that we have to have these women's events because you know women don't get paid enough and the entire conversation was all about how we have so many odds stacked against us and it was the first time that I went. Oh no!

 If we believe everything that we're reading that's going to significantly impact where we are. Does that make sense, Matt?

Matt: Absolutely, you know it’s right there. It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's the issue of like you said, it's a woman's conference for the empowerment of women, but really what are they doing? They are taking that negative narrative and they've reinforced it by creating a conference specifically to push that idea forward. They're using it as a platform to stand on.

Kim: Okay. Well, alright. So because this ends up being a touchy issue with people and I really want us to dive into this.

 So it's I think right now people say do you still need to have affinity groups or should we have them all together? I'm of the belief that we should still have Affinity groups. But at the same time also continue having sessions of men and women because I don't feel Society has made enough advancement yet that the need for Affinity groups are not there. Do you agree with that?

Matt: Absolutely agree. I'm by no means am I saying that we shouldn't have the affinity groups. In fact, I think we should probably have more of them and more often because I think pointing out the power of women as a group is fine, you just it's kind of like a Venn diagram. You don't want to have one group off to the left and one group off to the right.

There's obviously we overlap you have to think about that overlap. But to that point what I'm saying is you don't want to stand on a platform of that negative narrative and use that as the point.

Kim: Okay.

Matt: That’s right.

Kim: That's what I want to slow down on that because that's what I think so many of us missed, because I didn't even realize that, Matt. And that's kind of where I'm trying to sound the alarm is we've actually become so accustomed to all of these negatives statistics  that we I think unconsciously have become a partner and keeping this narrative Alive by continuing to repeat and pair it with what the media and everything else that we're reading speaks to us. Is that possible?

Matt: Yes. Yeah. I think that's true. And I think part of it is kind of flipping the discussion, right? So when you see the negative statistics, you know something about statistics is: statistics are always some part of the whole, right? And the media changes the part of it that is most sensationalized that makes the best part of their narrative.

So when you're talking about like the pay gap and you talk about women getting paid, you know, 20 to 40 percent less than men on average. Okay? Well while that might be the majority there is a minority story you could also be talking about that's positive that moves the narrative forward in a positive way. You can talk about success stories. You can talk about places where companies are making an honest concerted effort to put minorities men women and others into positions of you know, management and Leadership and changing their numbers in the boardroom and focusing on you know, stem agent for girls and young women that sort of thing.

So, there are always two sides to the story. You have to add up all the parts to make a whole.

Kim: Well, and that's what I want to ask your expert opinion about because this is where I'm trying to figure out, you know, you've seen where I've mapped out the past hundred years trying to have women think about that we have to change the way we view the world internally to impact the next 100 years.

 And so there's a balance between I know that there are people who need to know these numbers. So let's just take a recent leaning Report may be a workplace, women in the workplace report. I know that some of those statistics are important because some men really were not aware of it, but I'm beginning to wonder if we need to go on a dual track where we communicate certain things to men and then begin to communicate something different for women to try to help us dig out of that hole.

 So, if you could give me some insight on that because I'm really trying to figure out how do we pluck ourselves out of this fishbowl with a narrative where we can't see it?

Matt: Yeah. It's a good question. So bring it back to just kind of my area of expertise in neuroscience and neuropsychology. It's really interesting that the human brain taking away gender and culture and environment. The human brain actually functions very similar between men and women. It's one of the reasons that like at my day job here at Nielsen, you can do neurological research and have validity in the results is because the male brain and the female brain worked very similar to each other at a biological level. It's only once stimulus bubbles up through filters and life experiences in our environment all these other things that you start seeing these differences, right? So what I mean by that is we all take in stimulus the same way from the environment. We do the initial processing the same way and then the output might be different once we filter it. So when you're talking about two different, you know, storylines, I think it is very important to be aware of these statistics.

 I'm not saying you throw away the negative and okay, but it's sort of like the old business adage and I'm sure you've taught this in your business classes. Don't go into a story or take information and  go, Yes, but or, or do the yes and it's important to recognize those negative statistics, but make sure you add the positive to balance it out and understand that there are two sides to it.

And yes, there should be a narrative for women and empowering narrative that talks about the statistics always be aware of it. You need to be aware of everything. But also then filter it with what are the positive stories that go along with it. And men I think need to be brought into the conversation in as much as they aren’t aware because the other sides of the narrative men are just assuming that they're in a position of authority. They make better money. The doors are open for them easier. They don't have to work as hard to get places because it just always has been that way for them. So they don't if you're not aware of and it's sort of out of sight out of mind and I think it’s important to bringing it to the forefront so men are aware of, Other cultural groups are aware of it, Women are definitely aware of it and then there might be separate tracks for communicating that information, but I think we do a great job of sensationalizing the negative part of it and we don't always talk about the {Inaudible: 19:04}.

Kim: Right, well I’m beginning to watch the impact that has on certainly younger women in the workplace. And so even I have a great video clip, even when Time Magazine had done that magazine of women of first and they hosted all kinds of women which was a wonderful storyline. I was really impressed with what they did and when you watch a video clip of her being interviewed on one of the mornings shows she talks about how she asked one of the younger women being featured in that is one of the young sports stars and said, so what do you think about the glass ceiling? And she said,” What is the glass ceiling?” and at that moment, when you begin to see that you say oh gosh, that's where we're beginning to pass on the Baton.

What if we actually instead of talking about the glass ceiling started changing that narrative like you and I were discussing so that negative statistics are not the first thing that's coming to mind.

Matt: Yep, I totally agree. And that's a good example too, Kim, is we talk about the glass ceiling that's a narrative device it is used that works really well because people have been you know, indoctrinated by that term for so long that it sticks around and even in popular media where we're trying to get past that sort of thing.

That's a great example of, you know, the power of words, right? So you say glass ceiling and I think probably all the listeners in your audience know exactly what you're talking about even without you having it described to them no matter what their ages. And that's both fortunate and unfortunate we should be aware of it, but I think we probably need a better term than glass ceiling if we want to move past it.

Kim: Well, I think that's part of the powers that we actually have as women. We have the power to begin to develop that new line, but don't you think we can start driving some of the directions?

Matt: Yeah, I think that's a really good point if we keep talking with the same words and narratives that we've had for so long it just going to perpetuate it.

Kim: Yeah.

Matt: So this is an absolute opportunity and you talked about in the book. You have to kind of blaze your own paths using your own words come up with your own coin. Your own terms politicians are terrific at this. It's how they make their stance in an election cycle right? Like they came up with Barack Obama. Yes, we can. How memorable is that? But before he said it, it was just part of the normal lexicon. So I think you have to come up with some want to say and then own it and then move it forward. So hashtag meeting.

Kim: That was like. Well, and that was the thing about when one of the stories in the book was she was going to speak and open up a conference and so when she went over her opening with me the way she was going to open was repeating all of the negative statistics and as stating that that was why we were having that conference there today and I had a conversation with her saying do you really want to keep repeating that? Is that really what you believe?

She is like no, I want to see a very different story but I don't know what else to do.

Matt: Yeah, that is….

Kim: So how does that show up, why are we to that place that sometimes we don't know what else to do?

Kim: That’s a really tough question. So I think you know from the research science part of it there's a lot of research that's done on gender and media and media perception and persuasion Theory, I think that's a big part of it is persuasion Theory.

Kim: All right. So what is that?

Matt: Okay. So Bruce Waite,

Kim: I think as my fellow intelligence scientist could go off for days on that so I know that, but briefly. So, what is that, Matt?

Matt: There are people who could stake their careers on it. So persuasion science and the study of persuasion is how we communicate a message from one person to another through a medium. So that could be television. It could be text messages. It could be Facebook and persuasion is how you get the message from point A to point B, and the impact that has when it's delivered.

That's the simplest way you can look at it and if you think about all types of communication whether you’re sitting across the table from a loved one or you're watching television or even just do something passive like watching a movie there is persuasion there. They're trying to persuade you of something even backing up.

I mean human history is based on storytelling, right? Going back to the early times you have cave drawings. It's the way we communicated before we had, you know verbal communication. They would draw things on Cave walls or paint things on the ground. So storytelling is literally central to everything that humanity does.

It's the basis of communicating if you come home and have a conversation with a loved one after work. It's always a story, you don't just give a bullet point presentation of what you did during the day. You literally walk somebody through your day and talk about, you know, the roadblocks and the accomplishments and everything else.

 So, I think taking that narrative and figuring out how to move the narrative forward is important. So to your question about you know gender and media. We have to change the narrative. We have to change how we talk about it. And you know, I'm thinking of this study that I found recently. I think I shared it with you from Julia Wood from North Carolina. She did a study called gendered media the influence of media on views of gender and she really talked about predominantly how women are portrayed across media and I think what's interesting in her study is it talks so much about the unbalanced view whether it's you know popular media TV shows women and are always forced into traditional gender roles their life the homemaker the husband's in a position of Authority or the breadwinner whatever the case is.

But News media, one of the statistics that she calls out of there is only 16 percent of women in news media are anchors. So that's you know over 80% or how male-dominated news so they're driving the news narrative, right? So it's hard, you know, it's not hard to see why the Narrative is so geared towards male controlling the narrative because 80% is at the news desk.

Kim: Well, I just read a recent book just to tap into that. It's a book called,” Inferior” and on the women's names just escapes me but I'm going to interview her. She was talking about how even in the Science World that because so many scientists have been male and there's growing rights of women, but the way they the male's scientists see the world very differently and women are changing that narrative and that's also has a very big shift in the way we are so I think that's an excellent point that you're bringing up.

Matt: Yeah. It's absolutely the case even in Academia where things are mostly blinded. If you think about Journal articles and academic research and stuff like that, unless you specifically go searching for a name article often are just white papers with black text on them and they try to be as gender neutral as possible. It's very boring very bland vanilla language. What they're trying to do is get the facts out there and not created narratives, if that's actually the intention it was scientific research.

Kim: Supposedly though. I have divided into this. I have a big question because I'm very proud of. you want me to go ahead?

Matt: Yeah, go right ahead.

Kim:  All right. I read Hundreds and hundreds of studies as I was prepping for the book because as I told you I was perfect. I'm going to think that I had discovered and to be honest with you Matt, So help me help me out here, prove me if I'm wrong. Correct me.

 I actually began to see that some of those studies in the way they were actually positioned was through the lens of men and history which I call his story and that I actually began to realize that some of the narratives that were repeating was quite possibly influenced before the study even started.

 Does that make sense?

Matt: Yes, and it's very true. Unfortunately, so in a perfect vacuum, studies would be done without that level of bias there. We would not jump to conclusions and work backward the correct way of following the scientific formula is you would develop a hypothesis. You would test the hypothesis and report on the results regardless of what those results are.

 Unfortunately, and this goes back to public interest in where the funding is coming from, whether it's you know, NIH versus private funding and this is another place. You have to be careful. Even when you hear in the news, you know, you hear this all the time. They love to do these fluff pieces about you know, So-and-so University is reporting on and they list off a whole bunch of Statistics.

You have to find out where does the funding come from.

Kim: How interesting.

Matt: If the money comes from private interest groups some time without specifically saying it, part of the stipulation for getting that funding is there looking to find out about whatever it is that interests them and they'll work backward from the conclusion. You're not supposed to do that and it's really kind of against the ethical code amongst academics, but it does happen and there's a lot of people out there that want the funding to continue their careers and in Academia there's a lot of pressure to publish and to continue to publish and be relevant in your particular field, especially in the hard Sciences.

Kim: Yeah.

Matt: So we rush to conclusions and studies are done. In a way that very well might have a leaning side, so I don't deny that at all.

Kim: Okay, so let's talk about this in a bigger systemic perspective though because I think, you know, that was my expertise in systems thinking and that's when you and I really started to connect. It’s the reality is that every system wants to stand and live on its own.

So a system has an interest in keeping itself alive. So your point about actually understanding where the funding comes from, I think that's really important because I'm not sure that some of these systems can be broken down within the system as much as it will need pressure outside of the system. Does that resonate?

 Matt: Absolutely, and I think this it applies whether you talking about Academia or news media or any Corporation, right? Like every corporation has a particular goal whether it's to shareholders or their internals that you know, your local staff of it's just a couple of people or even local business owners. They all have a motivation and a goal and oftentimes the bottom line and if a lot of this is driven by you know money or special interest or whatever the case is whether you're talking politics or corporations or just your personal life. You have to understand what the underlying motivational drive is and then that will also warm why the narrative is going a certain direction.

Kim: Okay, so, you know, I'm a big proponent of realizing that we're not powerless. Okay, that we can be powerful and we can step into that power. So how do we talk to The Listener about what steps can you begin to take to become more aware of the narrative not accepting everything as fact and beginning to do some research on your own because I really do believe Matt that we have the ability to see through all of this? I guess what I'm saying.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely. So here I'm going to give you guys a very special gift. I want to give you $100,000 Ph.D. education in a couple sentences.

This this is literally the most important thing that you're taught when you go into any Ph.D. program. It's probably taught in the first couple weeks of the course and then after that, you're on your own, okay. What you want to do is anytime you have something that you're researching you have to find what is base reality? What is the original source of that information? So let's say, Kim, you and I are talking and we're talking about the Pay Gap, right? We want to know before you just assume take that bias that heuristic and say okay. This is available. You tell me X and I accept that as truth or base reality. You need to step back and research and work your way back to the original source. So, often times what you'll see is in journal research or dissertation research. What we're was drilled into us in graduate school is if you want to make a claim and this really I this is a big point for me and I'll try not to get off on a tangential thing because …..

Kim: I have to bring you back on for another interview Matt. You and I always have some good things.

Matt: Absolutely, but this is a problem. I think it's particularly important to the audience because we all deal with social media. So think about this every time you read a post on Facebook or every time you read a tweet or you're talking to you know get some popup things some click bait link that you want to click on you need to figure out where the original Source was. If you cannot… if somebody makes a claim and they state something as fact. In the academic world, you cannot state something as fact unless you have something to back it up.

 You have to have a reference and the reference, the strength of the reference is dependent upon how close to the original Source it was. So if I quote somebody or I state something is a fact I should be able to reference the person that said that directly and if that person is referencing somebody else, I need to continue down the rabbit hole until I find the original soil, right and that's the only way you can truly validate it.

So, the same thing should be said with your watching, you know news media and somebody says something. Don't just take it at face value. Think about it for a second think about it logically and then work your way backward to make, be active in your own media consumption and walk backward and go, hey, I need to go look that up. Who do they say that person was look up the name look up the article and then go down that rabbit hole go hey, these weren’t the people that reported on it there now quoting somebody else and somebody else and work your way back and see if it comes from a legitimate news source, or an academic or a First Source account of something like from the AP news wire or is it coming from you know some big news media website or some propaganda piece.

Kim: Okay, so let me add on to that. So if I were to put everything you just said in a very simple sentence I would have said for us all to have a healthy skepticism of what we're being told is the way things are.

Matt: Well, you're much better with words than me. Yes, absolutely.

Kim: No. No, that's what I do is I take all of your heavy academic thoughts and be able to put into simple terms because and another day we'll talk through it because everybody who is done this what I'm wanting, I want women and the listeners’ men and women, but of course is to really begin to have a healthy skepticism and say wait a minute. Why am I putting so much value on that person's opinion? And you know do your research like you said go down and see where it comes from but then the pause long enough and reflect and ask yourself. Do I want to believe that or is there another way? Because on a whole other podcast Matt. I'd like to get into the conversation that everyone seems to abdicate to academia or to the news or some of these things and some of those institutions are steeped and old thought processes as well. So we all have the ability to birth new ideas. Is that fair?

Matt: Absolutely totally fair it I'll just put a plug in here for reality science. I have a Clarity Consulting business called reality science that we deal with emerging technology and media consumption is kind of two of our big pillars and when we're dealing with companies, whether they're working on new technologies, like an ARV, VR Internet of things AI whatever the case is, we're always trying to look at how does this affect the consumer the end product user and how can they make sure that they're doing it safely. I think there's a big concern around that and how are they positioning it and communicating about it.

So one of the people all call out, you should probably really interview them on a future podcast as well Kim. His name is Johnny White. He's a part of our team and he came up with this terrific idea about a media diet. So he can't create this framework that is very similar to just like you had diet at home to keep yourself healthy and exercise and watch what you put in your body. Well, media consumption is the same thing. You have to watch what you're putting in your body even eyes and your ears instead of your mouth and he would be a great person to frame this for you. But he says, you know, just like you wouldn't sit and eat junk food all day long. Why do we sit and go down the rabbit hole on Twitter and Facebook and click bait and consume all this garbage? Because even if you know its click bait. That doesn't mean it's not influencing. It's still adding to your base knowledge and you might hear something else completely unrelated, uncorrelated because correlation is not causation. But you might make that bleep, unfortunately, create causation there. So that's something I think Johnny would be able to speak to really well.

Kim: I will do that. I will actually reach out because I do think that's really what I'm trying to bring awareness for everybody's beginning to realize that okay, woman this has been you know, this has been the narrative but it's my belief that you know through that election for a variety of reasons that we've crossed over an invisible threshold that we can actually change it if we begin to choose to do so and I think that's the power of choice. And that's really what you're talking about. We have the power to choose.

Matt: Absolutely, and I think just on that same note. I think you talked about in the book in the November election about how it was such a pivotal change point and how it sparked the women's March and got people out in a positive way have their voices heard. I think now, you know now that the book is published. We're now seeing going into the midterms. This is, it's the carrying over, even more, we have more women running for public office than we'd ever seen previously and there are reports out there. Now First Source Reports, I might add, from the AP news wire where they've done the research and 537 which is a terrific kind of fairly balanced a little bit left-leaning admittedly, but 537 s done some terrific statistical research where it shows that if projections and polls are to be believed women running in the midterms could see historic reseeding in the House of Representatives to the point where we will have more women representation in the house and potentially the Congress than we've ever seen in the history of the United States. Which is saying something because that means there is a movement afoot in the compass is pointing in a different direction. I'm not saying by any means that it's completely changed the narrative but it's definitely making more than a blip on the radar. I think that's a really positive advancement.

Kim: I'm glad you brought that up and to be honest with you as I watch the emerging story here in the US. I'm also watching the emerging story that countries around the globe because I do believe they're all interdependent and their stories are related.

And you hear me talk often about this Global Sisterhood and I had to be honest with you as we wrap up here. You've heard me talk about the mental models that we have, the lens through which we see the world. I often have now realized that history is when we've seen the world through his story. I believe there's a time coming where there will be an opportunity for us to begin to see the world through her story through that lens and what I've learned that and I'll have you have the final word here is that when her Story begins to emerge it naturally evolved into our story because that is the way we are wired.

Matt: Absolutely. Yeah, and I will say so this is I tell everyone this. You have to think about reality perception is reality and you control your perceptions. And in the in the book, you put a wonderful quote in there. I appreciated that. I talked about the unspoken responsibility to each other that we have to find in ourselves balance and  equality.

 And what we think is right and avoid those biases and that's when we can hope to expect the same from others. So if we want to change the narrative you have to focus on a perception which then, in turn, informs your reality and you control your own reality. And what is true and what's not.

 Kim: And that my friend is a perfect ending. I can't thank you enough for being here Matt. We’ll continue the conversation as we see the whole narrative begin to change in our lifetime. Many thanks.

Matt: Thanks, Kim. Appreciate it.

I hope you found this edition of The Sisterhood report thought-provoking and inspiring. Please know the role you play in the collective story that is unfolding is powerful the world needs you. Yes you, y-o-u and everything that you have to offer. Thanks for joining us today. As always you can find my book. Your Lion inside on Amazon 1-800 CEO read and all eBooks sites. It has been truly my privilege to serve you today my sweet sisters until next time.